playdate avoidance

[meems]

I just got off the phone with a friend who wants our kids to get together. I just replied vaguely b/c well I am not comfortable with her kid around my kids.

Her dd is 2 (turns 3 in Dec) and she became a big sister in May so maybe she is having adjustment issues. But when she doesn't get her way she will attack. and when she does she goes for the face. And scratches hard. Both my kids have had scratches from her around their eyes. Scratches deep enough to scab over and be visible for several days. And sometimes she will not stop until someone pulls her off the other child.

and apparently she has bitten Henry, not bad but still.

I know that one problem is that we, the moms, aren't supervising well enough. We tend to let the kids run off while we gab :rolleye0012:.

DH doesn't even want our kids to play with this girl until she grows out of this stage. And I am getting tired of my kids getting hurt by this girl (who although younger is slightly bigger than Lily). Henry doesn't ever retaliate, thank goodness. And selfish, bad-mommy me, I don't want to have a playdate where I have to be constantly watching the kids. We've gotten together many times and it always ends up with my kids in tears. She's kind of hinted that she wishes my kids would fight back, which I don't think is the answer.

So I'm in avoidance mode. I don't want to tell the mom why though b/c she would be really hurt and that it would be something that she wouldn't get over, even after her DD passes this stage (I hope she outgrows this stage).

oh well, I just needed to get that off my chest I guess. sorry for the long post.

[YvetteSanders]

I don't blame you Mimi, I wouldn't want my son playing with her either!

[Hom74]

I don't blame you. My nephew is in another whacking stage. Like last week (we were all all in my sis's living room) my DD1 was playing w/a toy. My nephew wanted it (even though both his hands were holding other toys) and when DD1 won't give it to him...he swat his hand (which was holding a big truck/car thingy) down on her and it struck her under the eye. My poor girl. It hurt and scared her (and me!), but luckily it didn't leave a big mark. Unfortunately, the way he deals w/it when he gets in trouble for whacking someone is that he will whack himself w/whatever he's holding over and over and then makes a big cry claiming that he's hurt too *sigh* So even when you are right there, things happen fast!

Maybe go out for a play date. Library or a park or the zoo. Oftentimes kids can get more possessive if it's in their territory and sometimes indoors is too cramped for them...esp if it's more than 2 kids. And when you are somewhere out in the open and a new/different place...there's so many things to oh and ah over that tensions are less?

[Hom74]

just wanted to add a photo of DD1 a couple of days ago. It's that little dis-colored spot under her right eye. It had been several days since the whack. yeah, it's not that big of a deal, but it is for us...since we're not used to stuff like that lol. I guess that's another great part of only having had girls.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/Hom74/20071008_WOW_11.jpg

[meems]

oh wow, Karen, I would have been scared too!

The eye thing is a big reason DH says don't play with her. I don't know why but she goes right for the eyes. DH says one day our kids might not be so lucky and it's too risky.

[Paula]

I don't blame you one bit Mimi. Your kiddos won't have a nice time if they keep getting hurt. I agree with your DH and avoid playdates with her until she grows out of her antagonism.

[~Shawna~]

Oh Mimi I don't blame you at all - I wouldn't want my kids playing with a child like that either! It wouldn't take much provocation & Lily or Henry could get really hurt!

My nephew Trever is 1.5 years older than Kaylie and has always been a very rough child. When Kaylie was 1.5 (making him 3) we were at a family BBQ for Mothers Day and we were all out in the backyard. We had finished eating and all the kids were playing & Trever goes up to Kaylie and just tackles her & shoves her to the ground! She was playing all on her own & didn't do anything to him at all. So I get up & run to her cause she's crying and her legs are all skinned up & my SIL and BIL were just sitting there talking! They didn't get up & get on to him, or even ask if she was okay as I'm carrying her into the house crying! I was so pissed after getting her cleaned up & then coming back outside to find him still playing like nothing had happened, that I told my DH that we were leaving right then! I didn't talk to my SIL for quite awhile after that!

[mzkellyb]

I don't blame you at all for not wanting to put your kids in the position. When I was taking my kids to a local playgroup when we lived in NC there was a boy who was very mean and the mom just ignored his behavior. I stopped going and more and more people stopped going when that little boy was going to be there.

Next time she calls you should tell her that one of your kids is having a "mean day" and you don't want anyone to get the brunt of their bad day. Maybe she would get the hint?

[scrappinmichele]

I can totally understand your fears. Having been on the other side though I understand how your friend probably feels. My oldest, who was eventually diagnosed with ADHD and a few language disorders, but as a young child we didn't know that. He was always the one outed from playgroups and it was very depressing for me. I worked very hard with him on behaviors and I didn't by any means "allow" it. It was one of the most frustrating times in my life as a parent. I had no one to talk to because all the Moms thought I was a bad Mom or something and my DS had no friends because no other Mom would want him to play with their kid. Now my son never hurt anyone to the point of causing them to bleed though. He used to do things like throw a toy if he didn't get his way, throw tantrums if kids didn't play his way, etc. They thought my son was a bad influence.

But on the same note I had a hard time working on the behavior with him when no one would play with him. After we moved to a new state, we had a whole new slew of friends and 2 of them had boys and they were so nice to me about it. They used to say, "let's work on it together" and they helped me help my son and let me tell you it was a whole different world for us. My son really learned to play with other kids well and I had some friends who understood and didn't blame me or shun me.

When my son entered Kindy, his teacher was a veteran and recognized that he may have some language disabilities and sure enough he did. And much of it was pragmatics which has a lot to do with socialization and understanding social cues, etc. They told me all the behaviors he had as a young child were becase of the pragmatic language disorder he had and it had nothing to do with my being a bad mother and that YES, he needed to be taught how to behave correctly and that pulling him out of the playgroups was probably the worst thing because he was being punished for something he couldn't control. They equated it to being punished for not being able to see if you really need glasses.

So since then, I have never done that to another mother. I have always tried to work with them and assume the best in all children. It's a whole different ballgame wihen it is your own child.

[meems]

Michele, thanks for your post. it's good to hear from the "other side." I did have thoughts about how would this girl improve her behavior if she didn't get to play with other kids. And I know the mom feels bad about it. Part of me agrees with working with her but part of me thinks it is getting riskier for my own kids. The little girl used to only attack Henry but now she attacks Lily too. I can understand not sharing, having tantrums, things like that. But as a parent, I also don't want to put my children in a harmful situation.

I don't know anythying about language disorders or anything like that. This girl is pretty verbal.

I don't blame the mother. I just thought it was a stage the child was going through and she'd outgrow it eventually.

Michele, how did your son learn to change his behaviors? What kinds of things did you do? I think my friend is at a a loss for what to do. So far my kids are pretty easy and so I haven't had much experience in dealing with aggressive behavior.

[~Shawna~]

Mimi I don't know what state you're in, but here in Kansas we have a wonderful program called Parents as Teachers (http://www.parentsasteachers.org/site/pp.asp?c=ekIRLcMZJxE&b=272091) that is partner of our local school district. In our area it is for birth up to age 3 and is a completely free program. A parent educator comes out monthly and does different developmental activities and assessments with the child. Kaylie started the program about 6 months before her 3rd birthday and then went on to their 3yo preschool program the next school year where she learned so much (she is a December baby so she just started Kindy this year so she had 2 years of preK)! Kelsie started the program at around 5 months and did it through her 3rd birthday and Kyle is also in the program now. Our parent educator was able to work with Kelsie on some minor speech things that she noticed and Kelsie will now talk your ear off! You said your friends daughter is almost 3 but if there is a similar program (http://www.parentsasteachers.org/site/pp.asp?c=ekIRLcMZJxE&b=272324) in your area they still may be able to give her some tips/advice and things to work on with the little girl. Our PAT group also does weekly playgroups, book look club (storytime) and other group activities such as a horseback riding events, pumpkin patch trips, zoo trips, Mom's Meal and lots of other stuff. They really are an invaluable resource in our area!

[scrappinmichele]

Michele, how did your son learn to change his behaviors? What kinds of things did you do? I think my friend is at a a loss for what to do. So far my kids are pretty easy and so I haven't had much experience in dealing with aggressive behavior.

I completely understand you wanting to protect your children and I do think if my son were hurting the other kids physically I probably would have been excusing myself from the playgroup anyhow.

Language disorders don't always have anything to do with how well they speak which is why I never picked up on it with my son because he was right on target with all the language milestones. He had an expressive/receptive/pragmatics language disorder. Basically it meant he had a hard time comprehending the spoken words (took him longer to think about stuff before it registered what people were saying) and he had a hard time expressing himself (once again took him longer to find the words that he needed to say) and he had a difficult time reading and giving social cues.

With my son I would have him and his friends play right there with me and my friend. We stayed in the room with the kids. If I saw my son begin to get aggitated I might go over and just touch him or maybe redirect him before the incident got blown out of hand. That was when he was about 3/4 yrs. As he got older we had to teach him what anger felt like so he could recognize the emotion before hand and change his behavior.

What you might try doing is talking to your friend instead. Maybe tell her that you have concerns about the physical harm, but yet you do not want to lose her friendship and maybe suggest that you sit with the kids (I know that it's hard to gab then, but it really does help) and that way any situation could be diffused before it starts. Does it happen after a few hours? Maybe the girl really is over stimulated and the play dates need to be shorter? There could be many reasons why it's happening and it could very well just be a stage.

My 4 yr old went through a biting stage. Now fortunately he only bit his siblings and never anyone outside our home, but that one I nipped in the bud very quickly. Whenever he would do it I would first tend to the kid he bit and then I would get down to his level and simply say "NO, biting hurts. We don't bite" and he would sit on the steps for 2 min (he was 2 at the time). It took a while, but he got over it and has never done it again.

To me, the biggest key is how the Mom handles it. If she is ignoring the behavior or blowing it off, then you have every right to protect your kids. If she really is trying to do something about it, then maybe you could help and still protect your kids at the same time. I don't like when the Mom has the "my kid never does anything wrong" attitude because we all know all of our kids do something wrong some of the time. And often THOSE are the kids that are worst cuz they never get caught or punished cuz their parents think they are perfect.

[meems]

To me, the biggest key is how the Mom handles it. If she is ignoring the behavior or blowing it off, then you have every right to protect your kids. If she really is trying to do something about it, then maybe you could help and still protect your kids at the same time. I don't like when the Mom has the "my kid never does anything wrong" attitude because we all know all of our kids do something wrong some of the time. And often THOSE are the kids that are worst cuz they never get caught or punished cuz their parents think they are perfect.
The mom does take some sort of action of when her daughter acts up but personally it's not the kind of action I'd take. I feel like she is way too rough on her DD; she'll grab her arm and start yelling at her and telling the girl she is mean and bad. Which I just don't think helps. I've mentioned to the mom about how I didn't think that was a good idea and she agreed but she still does it. She herself admits she has an anger management problem.


With my son I would have him and his friends play right there with me and my friend. We stayed in the room with the kids. If I saw my son begin to get aggitated I might go over and just touch him or maybe redirect him before the incident got blown out of hand. That was when he was about 3/4 yrs. As he got older we had to teach him what anger felt like so he could recognize the emotion before hand and change his behavior. Last time we met, I did tell her that we should not let the kids play unsupervised and she agreed. I used to think that it the girl was too tired, hungry, etc but that doesn't seem to be the case since we have met at all sorts of different times and it doesn't make a difference.

I also wonder if maybe we were kind of reinforcing her behavior. The kids would play and there'd be an incident. We'd calm everyone down and then let them go on playing. I'm thinking now that we should have just ended the playdate right then and there.

[scrappinmichele]

That might be a good idea....to end the playdate. That makes the girl understand that the kind of behavior she is exhibiting will NOT be tolerated. But then if the mother is being very rough with her then maybe she is just doing what she is taught. I'm not saying the mother is hurting the child, but handling the situation as she sees her mother doing it, but taking it further and actually hurting because she doesn't have the self control to stop herself at that age.

I would be more concerned about that mother's reaction (IMHO) because if the mother continues to be harsh with her daughter then she is setting the example. I would be more concerned with my kids seeing that also. My thought always is if they are behaving like that in public, how do they treat their children behind closed doors?

Not that I'm a professional, but having a son with ADHD and LD early on, I've done a TON of research and have had to deal with a lot of this first hand. It's not fun at all!!! LOL! But I'm proud to say that my son is now 11 and quite a different kid than he was at age 5. He has a lot of self control, is very compassionate, doing great in school and really gets along well with other kids. So, it all can be overcome, but with a lot of work.

But ultimately, you need to do what you think is best for your kids. Maybe give it one more try and try ending the playdate if something happens.

[meems]

That might be a good idea....to end the playdate. That makes the girl understand that the kind of behavior she is exhibiting will NOT be tolerated. But then if the mother is being very rough with her then maybe she is just doing what she is taught. I'm not saying the mother is hurting the child, but handling the situation as she sees her mother doing it, but taking it further and actually hurting because she doesn't have the self control to stop herself at that age.

I would be more concerned about that mother's reaction (IMHO) because if the mother continues to be harsh with her daughter then she is setting the example. I would be more concerned with my kids seeing that also. My thought always is if they are behaving like that in public, how do they treat their children behind closed doors?
yeah, the mom's behavior has also been weighing on my mind lately. and it is contradictory, her behavior and what she tells her DD. And I didn't like for my kids to see that. The mom has been stressed lately I think with the new baby (who has some issues) so that doesn't help.

I think I'll hold off on any meetings for a few days and then next time we meet, I will make sure it is at a public, neutral location. and we will leave at the first spot of trouble.

eta: Michele, sounds like you are doing a wonderful job parenting your kids! thanks for taking the time to reply.

[Hom74]

I would recommend Siblings Without Rivalry (http://www.amazon.com/Siblings-Without-Rivalry-Children-Together/dp/0380799006).

I've heard recommendations about this book even before I had #2. Being the lazy reader I've become lol....I only just borrowed it from the library last week lol. I guess I've been procrastinating b/c my girls are 'pretty good' and I feel like I try my best - like all other parents out there.

Yuck reading. Who has time to read w/a new baby. But i got to say that it's a very short read! I read it when I was waiting in the car for something DD related and occasionally at home when my girls were awake, but playing w/being needed. One thing I like about this book is that there are some cartoon drawings of sample situations and examples of one way for the parent to say/phrase things...and then a better way to handle/phrase things.

Even before reading this book, I was VERY against 'labeling' children like: "man, you are so mean!" "Bad girl!" etc. Gosh - is that what I want them to hear from ME? I also tried very hard not to say "No x,y or z". I tried very hard not to use the word "No". Yes, they should at some point understand 'no' and even though I was very aware of it...I still say stuff like "No jumping" and "No x,y,z"...but I tried not too lol. Most times I have phrases I use over and over "The couch is for sitting", "Oh...you can either sit or lie down on your bed" "Let's be ballerinas and tippy toe" - hee hee...most times when the younger one is sleeping and my oldest is not.

Basically...I try very hard to tell them what TO DO...instead of telling them what not to do. Does that make sense? I feel like when I say "No jumping" that (esp when they are babies and young toddlers) what they remember is "jumping" lol. b/c I've notice that A LOT. I've noticed people telling kids what NOT to do and they continue to do it while looking at them. I'm thinking (and I'm by no means ANY expert haha) that they are only processing a key word (maybe the fun word to them) or the last word and not really hearing the rest.

And another reason why I try to not mention what I don't want them to do...is b/c if I mention it...they may become transfixed on what's mentioned. Like if I say "Do NOT imagine your husband in a yellow, polka dot bikini" You're gonna imagine it even though I said NOT to lol.

When DD2 was born DD1 was 20 months old. She went through a swatting the air phase - very short! She didn't make contact with anything. It actually cracked me and my sister up - though we NEVER laughed in front of her. But b/c DD2 was VERY little (newborn)...basically what I did w/DD1's swatting the air was ignore it. I think it went away b/c I ignored it...no reaction on my face. btw...my mom TOLD me to go hit her hand w/chopsticks *rolls eyes*

If either one of them does any sort of swatting at the other nowadays though - I would NOT ignore it. b/c they are both older...of course they get reactions from each other w/those hand swats whether contact is made or not. I think the reactions feed into it. Also...when DD2 was a newborn I ignored DD1 basically b/c I was ALWAYS w/DD2 so I was always sure that everyone was safe. Another reason I can't ignore that now is that there are periods where both girls may be in the same room without any adults for short periods nowadays.

Anyways, Siblings Without Rivalry discusses what to do in physical situations. The book may seem simplistic to some and the sibling relationship can't be brought to peace instantly forever w/no more squabbles, but I like the different ways it views things that people may not have seen and it gives a starting point in how to talk to the kids.

Maybe Happiest Toddler on the Block (http://www.amazon.com/Happiest-Toddler-Block-Well-Behaved-Four-Year-Old/dp/0553381431/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-2957332-4927320?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1192170525&sr=1-1) would also be helpful. I found his Happiest Baby on the block to be very helpful and a great read. I love the way he looked at it from why the kid may be doing what they are doing and some ways to get through to them.

A little off topic...I've said that I try not to use "no" or "not" when phrasing things. I know I drive DH mad with this. One thing I will always retell (in a funny way) is the time DH was scolding DD1 when she was sick (coughing when she would overexert when playing or talking). He told her "No talking!" then he would ask her to repeat what he said. Wendy, what did I say? No what? No what? I was like - seriously are you TRYING to get her in trouble?!?! You don't want her to talk yet you want her to repeat back to you the phrase "No Talking" haha. Oh my goodness - that still cracks me up lol.

Anyways, hopefully your friend can help her girl out.


ETA = btw...just wanted to say that I don't go spotting off to people I know lol. I think what they do is their business. Even the closest person in the world, my sister, does some things totally different than me and have different beliefs (child and non-child related) but we respect each others beliefs and way to handle things. lol - I just didn't want to seem like I tell people how they should do things...I only do that to DH haha.

[scrappinmichele]

LOL! I loved your "dh in the bikini" comment cuz I sooo was doing that cuz you mentioned it. LOL!

I try not to use the word No also. I try to redirect instead and I also found that I often just yell stuff from the other room rather than making the effort to go into the room to redirect. I try to do that now too. It's funny cuz for so many years I always thought I needed to get my kids to change the way they do things cuz I didn't like it, but in reality, when I made changes to the way I behaved, they changed. What a learning exerperience that was. Now if I only could get my dh to buy into it.

I loved your story about the Stop talking! That sounds like the kind of thing a parent would say. LOL! We say all those things we swore we'd never say. LOL!

Anyways.....I think a neutral public place is a great idea and if it doesn't work out, well then you can make lots of excuses until the kids are grown and in college. LOL :D JK!!!

Let us know how it turns out. This parenting stuff is so hard and I want to know how come there aren't more "kodak" moments and less of the "not so fun" stuff. I still am not sure how I'm going to survive the teenage years of 4 kids. The emotional stuff with kids just drains me!!!

[scrappinmichele]

eta: Michele, sounds like you are doing a wonderful job parenting your kids! thanks for taking the time to reply.

Lots of trial and error AND LOTS of mistakes. LOL! My mom always tells me that you're gonna screw up at least one of your kids and do pretty good with at least one. LOL! I have 4 so I guess I have a better shot at screwing up more or doing ok with more. :D

[crazygirl]

Heck, you can control who you're children play with NOW.. I say protect them.. In a few years when they start school, they won't let YOU decide who they play with and they don't! ROFL! I stayed away from peeps whose children annoyed me ALL the time! ROFL!!! Avoided phone calls etc etc...
Ofcourse my children are only annoying to me, and hateful to each other.. ROFL.. I like to think around others they are well behaved..
However, Kim may suggest other wise, after visiting her this past weekend. LOL! HAAAAAA My kids were on ONE.. But I think I was a bit uptight, making sure they were on their best behaviour, and ended up making everybody miserable.. LOL!


OOO Karen, I'm reserving that book you recommended as we speak! LOL!